Program Change Table on Fusion?

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Program Change Table on Fusion?

Postby suilebhain » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:36 am

I know that we can set the Fusion to be able to receive Program (and Mix) changes via an external MIDI signal, but I can't find any reference to where we would set up the patches to correspond to those changes. Would they be selected from whatever Mode and Bank we were in at the time, like if I set up 128 patches in Favorites, I could change those? I've searched the Web, YouTube, here, the old forum, and the manual. Nothing. Seems like one of those things that they left out when creating the manual, should have been on one of those blank pages.
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Re: Program Change Table on Fusion?

Postby parametric » Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:04 am

Hi Suilebhain,

Are you using a DAW with the Fusion?

As you have found - MUCH was left unsaid about some aspects of the Fusion. Most annoyingly - the Midi data format . . . detailing what can and cannot be controlled by midi.

I use Reaper, and I did spend some time compiling a .reabank file which you can load up in Reaper and will allow you to select Banks and programs from Reaper's dropdown for allocating programs to tracks.

It does seem to work - at least, I've had no word back from anyone to say it doesn't - but then I have no way of knowing if anyone has tried it :roll:

I have only done this for the ROM content so far - the problem being that everyone's Fusion will be different depending on what extra Banks they have loaded on the HD . . . .

It seems that Bank selection works on the ORDER that the Fusion "sees" them on the HD - so even if you have the same banks as me, YOUR order may be different.

IMO You would have to edit - and add to - the .reabank file to personalise it to YOUR Fusion.

This file is just a text file. I used notepad++ which is a free one that's better than notepad . . . .

The Bank change LSB a MSB are strange with the Fusion. They stated in the readme that came with the last OS that they had Improved response to MIDI Bank messages. It will now automatically respond to either Bank MSB OR Bank LSB.

Based on that, I created the .reabank file - and if you examine it, you'll soon see how it works out.

Perhaps it can be altered for other DAWS? I would guess it's possible?

I'll attach it here - perhaps it will help?
Fusion ROM Banks.zip
(9.19 KiB) Downloaded 16 times


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Re: Program Change Table on Fusion?

Postby suilebhain » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:06 am

Actually what I was planning to use is a CrocEye, which is a hardware device that connects to a One Control OC10 Crocodile Tail. The Crocodile Tail, if you haven't heard of it, is a footswitch device that allows up to ten loops of effects pedals to be changed through a series of up to 70 programmed Programs (sorry for the redundancy). The OC10 by itself does MIDI switching but it is very rudimentary - Program 1 = MIDI slot 1, and so forth. Using the CrocEye, however, allows programmed changes to be made across 16 channels and up to a full 128 presets per channel, so that Program 1 in the OC10/CrocEye combo can hold Channel 1/Preset 18, Channel 2/Preset 1, Channel 3/Preset 120. Program 2 can be Channel 1/Preset 16, Channel 2 Preset 4, no entry for Channel 3, Channel 4/Preset 6, etc., all with a single button click (although switching between banks might be a little more than one click).

I have 4 MIDI-controllable effects units on my pedal board and was going to connect the Fusion to the last one so that it could receive program changes as well. What I am trying to anticipate is what would actually be changed on the Fusion.

So the questions are:

Is there somewhere internally that says Preset Bank 1/Preset 1 on the Fusion is automatically equal to Preset 1 on the OC10/CrocEye, as there seems to be no "Program Change Table" like I have in my Korg Wavestation SR, where I can say Program 1 = Bank 6 Preset 26 and so forth.

Does it only affect whatever Bank on the Fusion is engaged, so that if I bring Favorites 1 up, the changes will go through that list of favorites in order, or if I have the Strings category up, will it go through various string patches?
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Re: Program Change Table on Fusion?

Postby parametric » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:12 pm

My knowledge in that area is not very great - beyond what I have described.

From what you say - you are wanting Bank and Program selection - which the Fusion appears to be capable of . . .

Probably the sustain/expression/pitch and Mod will also work, but since large amounts of the data format were never described, I'm guessing much else will require trial and error.

All I can say is that when I devised the Fusion .reabank file for Reaper, and installed it (Reaper comes with a GMreabank file) . . I recorded some songs I had made FROM the Fusion into Reaper and saved them there . . .

When replayed back into the Fusion via midi - ALL the correct programs were selected and sounded correctly (as if played back in Song Mode on the Fusion).

I'm not familiar with the CrocEye gear you mention - or how it works . . . .

Perhaps try some of the Bank LSB and MSB, and program numbers taken from my file - and see if they do anything sensible in your setup?

I used this pdf for guidance when I created my file - perhaps it may be useful to you?
Art_of_Reabanks.pdf
(181.32 KiB) Downloaded 16 times


Sorry I can't be more help . . .

parametric
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Re: Program Change Table on Fusion?

Postby suilebhain » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:10 pm

I guess the easiest way to do this is to just plug something like my X-Station into the MIDI in on the Fusion and see what happens. :D

I'm not actually planning to drive the Fusion from the CrocEye, just make program changes. I'm playing guitar and synth and I need a way (or am hoping for one, anyway) to make program changes without having to press/scroll/press so I can make my program changes hands free.

The Crocodile Tail is a switcher for pedal boards, and the CrocEye is an add-on that enables the switching to be more elaborate for MIDI. I am running three Strymon pedals (Moebius, TimeLine, and Big Sky) and an Eventide Pitchfactor on my board so I can switch their programs with the MIDI (when it finally arrives) and was hoping to chain the Fusion in so that I can also pull up the desire patch and just lay my hands on the keys and play, rather than press/scroll/press and wait for it to load.
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Re: Program Change Table on Fusion?

Postby Jesse » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:30 pm

One thing that might help is to make a special program bank for you gig (GIG 1) and copy all the programs you use to that program folder (programs only and note which banks the programs came from for future reference).
If you have the memory expansion in your Fusion you can probably load all of them into memory and simply press (1) letter & (1) number to bring up which ever program you want.
Since they are already in memory they will be instantly available :)

Then you can make a list to place on your keyboard for a reference if you like.

JMS Favorites 1 Bank.pdf
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Re: Program Change Table on Fusion?

Postby suilebhain » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:40 pm

Favorites won't work for that purpose?
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Re: Program Change Table on Fusion?

Postby parametric » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:42 pm

Following on Jesse's suggestion . . . .

Save all the sounds you need for your Gig IN RUNNING ORDER in a Bank of your choice (GiG1 is good)

If you have or can acquire something like this: http://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Ba ... rd-CF1/5VS

I'm sure it can be configured to do an Up/Down program change, pressing a button with your foot . . . ?

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Re: Program Change Table on Fusion?

Postby Jesse » Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:49 am

That's the pedal I have connected to my 8HD :)
Tempus & Ludwig drums, Roto Toms-Djembe, Bongo's, Ibanez Bass, Fusion8HD, SUMO300 Amps, Alesis16 Firewire mixer, AKG D112-Behringer, B2-Shure, Beta 58a mics, Win10, Audigy soundcard, Audition3 & East West Goliath sound bank
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Re: Program Change Table on Fusion?

Postby suilebhain » Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:57 am

This is the one I am getting....

http://www.one-control.com/crocodile-tail-loop.html

...but that other one looks pretty cool, too. I love Alesis stuff. I even have an Akira!
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Re: Program Change Table on Fusion?

Postby Jesse » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:27 pm

Looks like some nice gear, i don't think this old mind could keep track of all that gear though :)

I'll keep searching to see if I can find anything to help you with your quest.

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Tempus & Ludwig drums, Roto Toms-Djembe, Bongo's, Ibanez Bass, Fusion8HD, SUMO300 Amps, Alesis16 Firewire mixer, AKG D112-Behringer, B2-Shure, Beta 58a mics, Win10, Audigy soundcard, Audition3 & East West Goliath sound bank
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Re: Program Change Table on Fusion?

Postby suilebhain » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:20 pm

How that works is that each button connects to a Send/Receive pair and you would connect your pedals (or small chains of pedals, depending on your preference and how many pedals you have to control) to each Send/Receive to form Loops. You have to use two pairs for stereo pedals. Then, the programming enables you to turn on combinations of Loops so that a single button push might turn on Loops 1,2,4,5, 8 while another might turn on 3,4,5,6 and so on, with 70 possible combinations or Programs. Under these conditions, you could also send a MIDI change that would correspond to Program 1 selecting the first preset on your device, the second giving the second, and so forth, so that to pull up the same synth patch on Programs 1 and 43, I would have to have the same Patch set twice in the bank (or a slight variation of it). The CrocEye is a small unit that attaches through a link in the back and that provides the ability to program, store, and send Channel and Program messages (as well as Tap, where appropriate).

This is where I am trying to figure out how the Fusion will respond (I don't have the gear yet so I cannot experiment hands-on yet). As it does not do Bank change, I am trying to figure out a head of time (I often speculate on the results I will get from gear I have not yet acquired, part of my GAS) just exactly how the CrocEye will change programs on the Fusion. If it merely selects from a list, I am hoping that I can use Favorites - Program 1 equals the first Favorite in the list, and so forth. The folder idea is cool, too, but as Favorites can be accessed so quickly, and I have a TON of sounds (just ask Klaus or Julia - I took advantage of some of their recent sales), scrolling through all of my banks takes quite a long time.
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