Tips for programming a realistic piano patch?

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Tips for programming a realistic piano patch?

Postby EXer » Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:49 am

I'm not entirely satisfied with the preset pianos so I'm trying to make my own programs and I'm looking for tips and tricks for making piano patches as realistic as possible.

I want to make a classical grand piano and a jazz grand piano for solo use from Steinway D and from Yamaha C7 multisamples from the USB Soundscan "Acoustic keyboards" Akai CD-ROM which I converted to Fusion format with Converter.
Those multis weigh 15 MB each and they include a sample for every white key with only one layer, i.e. no velocity switching.

Beyond simple sample :mrgreen: playback and besides the 'classic' tricks (velocity to filter, kb scaling of envelope times and softening the attack by increasing the sample start at lower velocities), what could I do or what should I do in order to make those programs really realistic?

Besides the obvious reverb which effects could enhance the sound?
Are there guidelines about how to set the master EQ for a grand piano patch?

In order to learn about piano patch programming I have analyzed the main preset piano program on my EX5 which gives a very good result from a rather thin sounding multisample. That program uses, among other things, the so-called 'static filter' of the AWM2 synth engine. That filter is in fact a low/high shelving EQ and there is one for each oscillator. It's called a 'filter' because it is not a static EQ: the frequencies of the low and high shelves follow the key (pitch) of the oscillator; and it's called 'static' because it is not time variant, i.e. it cannot be swept by a modulator (apologies to fellow EXers on this forum who already know this ;) ). Unfortunately this is not applicable to the Fusion.

Many thanks.
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Re: Tips for programming a realistic piano patch?

Postby Jesse » Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:19 pm

Check out the Ultimate piano collection I uploaded.
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Re: Tips for programming a realistic piano patch?

Postby EXer » Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:19 am

Jesse wrote:Check out the Ultimate piano collection I uploaded.

I took a look at that collection, and I'm wondering what the names of the multis really mean and how those multis should be used in programs.

For instance, for the FAZIOLI piano the "Soft", "Loud" and "Ped"(al) multis (.afi) are used in separate "Soft", "Loud" and "Ped" Fusion programs (.afp), and I'm wondering: aren't those multis meant to be used within one single program, as velocity-switched layers for Soft and Loud and pedal-switched for Ped?

In the same multis folder, e.g. "FAZIOLI LOUD" there are many multis :
FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 1
FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 1_1
FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 1_2
FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 1_3
FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 2
FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 2_1
FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 2_2
FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 2_3
FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 3
FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 3_1
FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 3_2
FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 4
FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 4_1
FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 4_2

From what I understand, FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 1, FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 2 and FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 3 are variations of "loud" (variations of what, btw?), and I believe they should be used in combination with their corresponding "soft" multis, e.g.
FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 1 (loud) with FAZ.DYN.32-2 MS 1 (soft) (variation 1),
FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 2 (loud) with FAZ.DYN.32-2 MS 2 (soft) (variation 2),
and so on (notwithstanding the pedal, of course...), or am I missing something?

Furthermore, what do FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 1_1, FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 1_2, FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 1_3, etc. correspond to?
__

I've also noticed that the collection includes Fazioli Loud, Soft and Ped, Steinway D Loud, Soft and Ped, but there is no Bösendorfer Soft nor Ped (only Loud), and there is no Steinway D Soft (only Loud and Ped), haven't those samples been converted for Fusion, or are they missing on the CD-ROM?
__

Did a documentation come with the CD-ROM? Could you please scan it and post it?

Many thanks (and sorry for all those annoying questions, I know you're willing to help by providing those samples, and I'm willing to make good use of them on my way to my holy grail :oops: ).
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Re: Tips for programming a realistic piano patch?

Postby Jesse » Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:11 pm

EASTWEST Sounds On Line – The Ultimate Piano Collection for Akai S1000 was converted for the Alesis Fusion by me using either Fusion Convertor Pro or Translator Pro (I don't remember which one) I asked for permission to share my Fusion Sound Banks with the Alesis Fusion Community.
I was given permission by EASTWEST Sounds On Line to share my Alesis Fusion The Ultimate Piano Collection sound banks for the Fusion.

Attached is a PDF file giving a description the contents of the EASTWEST Sounds On Line – The Ultimate Piano Collection for Akai S1000 CD ROM.
This is the only information have on The Ultimate Piano Collection for Akai S1000 CD ROM.
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EASTWEST Sounds On Line The Ultimate Piano.pdf
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Re: Tips for programming a realistic piano patch?

Postby kpr » Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:04 am

This multisample naming

FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 1
FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 1_1
FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 1_2
FAZ.DYN.32-1 MS 1_3

is a result of the data conversion.

Usually Akai S1000 sample CD ROMs are created with: An Akai S1000 and it's own data structure. There are options to arrange the samples (V Switches, etc.) in a different way compared to the Fusion. So the converter software is remapping the data. Unfortunately this might be confuse when looking into the then converted Fusion data.

I avoid this S1000 conversion. To keep the overview I prefer to convert the S1000 CD-ROM with a software like EXS and then check every single sample for correct editing (zero start, normalize, correct sustain loop, etc.). Having this a complete new mapping happens and finally this will be saved in a file format Fusion can load. Usually I prefer Akai S6000 format as it is proofed to load completely flawless with the Fusionconverter software. Then the data can be transfered to the Fusion and saved on it's internal harddisc.
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Re: Tips for programming a realistic piano patch?

Postby EXer » Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:29 am

Thanks Jesse and kpr for your answers.

Jesse wrote:Attached is a PDF file giving a description the contents of the EASTWEST Sounds On Line – The Ultimate Piano Collection for Akai S1000 CD ROM.
This is the only information have on The Ultimate Piano Collection for Akai S1000 CD ROM.

► That's VERY helpful to understand what's in the package and how to make the best use of it in the Fusion Image

___

Btw, I also tried the Florestan piano. I seem to recall I've read it's a sampled Yamaha P90 DP. It sounds very close to the main piano voice of an EX5 (P1-001 "Natural Grand") and to one of the pianos of the "Professional Sound Library" provided with the A4000/A5000. I strongly believe they are all made out of the same original samples of a Yamaha grand piano (most likely an S6). I play that voice on my EX5R using my 8HD as a master keyboard.
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Re: Tips for programming a realistic piano patch?

Postby hadley » Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:44 am

Sustain pedal -> damping

Effects bus one is already a plate reverb, which is suitable. Set the damping to 100%. This reduces the reverb a lot, so to compensate, increase the send 1 level. I went all the way to 100% here to sound about the same as before.

Now add an effect mod, from sustain pedal to bus 1 damping, set to around -35%. When you press the sustain pedal, the reverb will now simulate the felt damping being lifted off all the strings.

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Re: Tips for programming a realistic piano patch?

Postby hadley » Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:59 am

To improve the responsiveness, I use:

Global, settings, velocity curve=LIN, scaling=35

Program mod 3 (velocity>volume) shape curve=80%

I also do the same for program mod 4 (velocity>filter) but the effect seems minimal. I would like the sound to be less bright at lower velocities, which I guess will require modifying the initial filter frequency.

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Re: Tips for programming a realistic piano patch?

Postby Arevyn » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:46 pm

I know I'm ressurecting an old thread but Im also trying to make heads or tails of the EW Ultimate Pianos samples. Not only does the naming structure make no sense to me, but all the samples are set for velocity from 0-127. so would I need to go and set each group of samples (LOUD/SOFT/PED) to a specific velocity range?

I would love to get these to sound great and play with them, but Im just not sure where to begin with editing or "tweaking"
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Re: Tips for programming a realistic piano patch?

Postby kpr » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:34 am

Tweaking only if the data structure is completely clear. In case of this Piano Akai data conversion it's not. This is because the Akai Program and Multisample handling is pretty different compared to the Fusion. It might be possible to assign the different dynamic samles to the Volume > Crossfade function to make a V-Switch possible. But this venture needs time, and perhaps a new data organisation would be way quicker. In this case the work process is extracting all the samples > rename them > divide into the 3 velocity dynamics > created new multisamples > build the Fusion files with Fusionconverter > create Program Presets with the Crossfade > Volume modulation for V-Switches and additional Presets of the 3 multisamples where the Filter is used for the dynamic response. Done. Alternatively do a ready-to-use Soundfont, where the 3 dynamics are already assigned to the 0-50, 51-90, 91-127 Velocity zones.
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Re: Tips for programming a realistic piano patch?

Postby Arevyn » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:00 pm

Thanks Klaus,

So to make use of the samples at all they would need lots of work. Re-naming, setting up velocity ranges, organizing into new multi samples according to the fusions organization, and then tweaking with effects and such?

Is that right?
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Re: Tips for programming a realistic piano patch?

Postby kpr » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:33 am

Depends on how someone is experienced with doing that. If you're quite familiar with the Fusion's Edit handling and menus on the one side and also skilled with multisample organisation on the other, then it goes rather quickly. If not, then it might take a weekend.
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Re: Tips for programming a realistic piano patch?

Postby Arevyn » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:42 pm

Thanks again Klaus :-)

Im not that experienced as of yet, but im learning and this seems like a good project to cut my teeth on ;-)
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